To Prevent Flood Waters From Spreading, Chennai Should Plan In Advance: Economist Julian Morris

Julian Morris is an economist who has written extensively on environmental policy, free trade and technology. Presently Vice-President of research at Reason Foundation, a non-profit think tank in Los Angeles, Morris is also a visiting professor in the Department of International Studies at the University of Buckingham (UK). He co-founded International Policy Network, a London-based think tank before he joined Reason Foundation. Morris also ran the environment and technology programme at the Institute of Economic Affairs in London earlier. Morris was recently in Delhi to speak at a Centre for Civil Society event. In an interview with Shanu Athiparambath, Morris shares his views on pollution, and on how cities like Chennai can deal with floods. Edited excerpts:

Atiparambath: Chennai is flooded with water now. This is one of the worst floods in the history of the city. Hundreds of people died and thousands were displaced. You believe that cities can handle floods better through flood barriers and better building construction. How should cities like Chennai handle floods?

Morris: There are, certainly, ways in which floods can be handled well. This requires a lot of planning in advance so that flood waters do not spread. Even rehabilitation of people requires a lot of advance planning. There should be better infrastructure; there should be better maintenance of infrastructure. Also, markets have a great way of solving many problems. In principle, market-oriented reforms can solve the problem of floods. Streets are currently public property, and streets are not well-maintained. But, if streets are privatised, they are likely to be maintained well. Why did so many people die during floods?

Athiparambath: Many of them lived in poorly constructed buildings. Some were encroaching on public infrastructure like drainage or tunnels. Garbage and rubble blocked the flow of water. Some were living in shanties in areas where river was drying.

Morris: Cities can handle such disasters by becoming wealthier, directly addressing such problems is not a must. Poverty is the single biggest reason why people die in natural disasters. The number of people who die in natural disasters have decline much in the past 100 years. Some of these people were affected because they were living in shanties. That is, again, a result of poverty.

Athiparambath: India's financial capital Mumbai witnessed a similar situation 10 years ago. The reasons were similar. When there is a flood, many claim that this is because of global warming. But, when droughts happen, again, they claim that this is because of global warming.

Morris: Both could be true, or, both might not be true. It is very difficult to identify the reasons behind floods and droughts. We do not know whether global warming makes floods worse, or whether it is making droughts worse.

Athiparambath: Global Warming skeptics claim that a warmer world is better in many ways.

Morris:  An argument is that when there is a greater concentration of carbon dioxide, there would be greater crop production. Winters would be less severe in a warmer world. The expenditure on keeping houses warm would be lower. There will be likely more floods, and possibly more droughts. But the problems which the world faces right now are certainly much bigger than the possible effect of climate change. Pollution is certainly a much bigger problem than climate change right now. According to World Health Organization, four million people die because of air pollution every year. Most of these deaths happen in India and China.

Athiparambath: You say that indoor air pollution is a much bigger problem than pollutants from vehicles.

Morris: Burning fuels lead to a large amount of particulate pollution. Many of the deaths from air pollution happen because households burn wood, dung or crop residues. This is a much bigger problem than carbon emissions from automobiles. 

Athiparambath: How can building structures adapt to this?

Morris: It is not so much about building structures adapting to these problems. The problem is lack of affluence. One way to deal with it is by improving access to natural gas. Natural gases are much safer. My understanding is that there is not much access to electricity in India. As natural gas is heavily regulated, it is costly, too.

Athiparambath: The Delhi government wants to raise parking charges. Will this have any effect on pollution?

Morris: I'd imagine that it would result in less people parking on streets. Parking is better subsidised.

Athiparambath: The Delhi government wants everyone to walk, bicycle or use public transport to work.

Morris:  Delhi is a very, very dangerous place to bicycle to work. There are a lot of things Delhi has to do before getting people to bicycle to work.

Athiparambath: Economist Edward Glaeser says that if buildings are taller, more people will walk, bicycle or use public transport to work.

Morris: It may be true. It may not be true. When you look at energy use per square foot, it is actually greater in high rises. Houses in cities consume less energy because they are smaller. 

Athiparambath: Population density is very high in Delhi. So, mass transit is more likely to work in a city like Delhi.

Morris: There are cities in US where huge number of people use public transport, like New York. New York is far denser than Delhi. But, Mumbai is very dense. Density is certainly a factor. People live more close to work, and public transport is more likely to be cost effective.

Athiparambath: If the government allows high density building, more people are likely to walk, bicycle or use mass transit.

Morris: If the government allows, I imagine that there would be some effect. It seems that there are not many high-rise buildings in Delhi because land use is regulated. The Delhi government has inhibited the development of more dense and more mixed-use developments. This would be more conducive to people living close to work. There are many kinds of land use regulations in India, like regulations on converting agricultural farm lands. 

Athiparambath: But, agricultural productivity is going up. So, there is no shortage of farm land in India.

Morris: I do not know whether restrictions on converting farm lands is about conserving farm land or about preserving green belts. Delhi does not need farm land. Farming can be done elsewhere.

Athiparambath: The Supreme Court of India recently said that property rights are part of human rights.

Morris: That is pretty good. Property rights are not secure for many poor people in India.

Athiparambath: Yes. They are not able to use their property as collateral and get home loans or capital to start a business. But, the only way we can build more floor space in cities like Mumbai is by increasing the height of buildings in slums. But, they do not have secure tenure.

Morris: But, there are ways to give them secure tenure. I think they are trying to do that in some Indian states like Gujarat. What are the other measures they propose?

Athiparambath: In slums, real estate developers build tall towers, giving flats to low-income households for free. They do it in return for a higher floor area ratio.

Morris: Such measures will not work on a large scale. You can't rely on such measures. You said that some shanties in Mumbai's Dharavi cost more than Rs 1 crore. That is without secure property rights. So, imagine if they had secure property rights. Without secure property rights, they are not able to have better sewage or water supply. But, it is quite possible to privatise sewage and water supply. In England, most sewage collection was once public.

Athiparambath: In Gurgaon, there is a private sewage system. But, private providers of sewage dump sewage on public land. Private providers of water deplete groundwater. Private providers of electricity pollute the atmosphere.

Morris: But, it is possible to recycle sewage through treatment.

Athiparambath: In India, sewage being recycled and treated in its entirety happens only in one city: Jamshedpur, Jharkhand. In Jamshedpur, business conglomerate Tata own large enough tracts of land. So they were able to build better infrastructure.

Morris: Water is a tradeable. There is no need to deplete groundwater to extract water. There is an allocation problem here. If there are economies of scale, private provision of electricity does not lead to pollution. In Gurgaon, there are probably many small providers of electricity.

Athiparambath: Prime Minister Narendra Modi once said that if he had his way, he would privatise Indian railways.

Morris: Privatisation is, generally, a superior solution. When the government issues bonds to fund infrastructure, it does not have much control over spending money. When infrastructure is public, it will not be built where it is needed the most.